A question I can easily answer, since I've taken classes on them and installed them. They are a thing of misunderstanding, and salesman take advantage of that ignorance. (not to be taken as an insult)

First, be aware it's not exactly what it sounds to be. Geothermal heatpumps and regular heatpumps are the same thing with a minor difference of how heat is transferred. Keeping the explanation simple, the way they (both) work is to compress refrigerant, and when compressed, it causes the refrigerant to become hot. This hot refrigerant is run through a heat exchanger (similar to a car's radiator) and air is drawn through it to remove heat from the exchanger, to the air that is circulated into the home. Once the refrigerant has done it's job, it needs to be decompressed to repeat the cycle. This is done through a restriction called an orfice, but more importantly, when it's decompressed, it gets very cold. Too cold to make it hot enough when it gets recompressed. So it goes through another heat exchanger. This is where the difference between the two occurs.

On a regular heatpump, the outdoor unit is the "refrigerant warming" heat exchanger, and relys on the ambient air temperature to warm the refrigerant. On a geothermal heatpump, the refrigerant is run through a liquid-to-refrigerant heat exchanger, with ground water pumped through either a set of wells (one supply and one return) or through a closed loop of tubes buried in the yard.

OK, so the advantage. Well, on the regular heat pump, say it's 25 F outside. The colder refrigerant (maybe 0 F, I'm not sure) only has a difference of 25 F to warm the refrigerant with. On a geothermal, the heat exchange happens with water in the ground, which may be 50 F. That right there just doubled the efficiency. Additionally, regular heatpumps suffer another problem. When outdoor temperatures are close to dew point, the outdoor units will "ice up" just like a refrigerator freezer. The only option is to reverse into air conditioning mode (sending hot refrigerant to the outdoor to thaw it out) and engaging electric heat to prevent cooling the house. This condition usually only occurs between 40 F (when it's not warm enough to overcome exchanger freezing) and 25 F (when the air can no longer hold enough moisture to support freezing) Geothermal heatpumps don't suffer this problem since the temperature of the source-water varies little.

For cooling operations, the same advantages of geothermal exist. With regular heatpumps, you send hot refrigerant outside to cool in perhaps 100 F weather, but geothermal, it's still that 50 F ground temperature, again, doubling efficiency.

Just keep in mind, they are still both just compressor and refrigerant based air conditioning units, and still require just as much power as such. Don't let any salesman try to mislead you into thinking they are some geothermally heated water heating system that simply pumps the earth's water through an exchanger, and you get heat. You'll have to move out to Yellowstone or something of the like for that.

Barring the temperature differential advantages, the main cost difference will be directly affected by the time the electric heat will have to be on for a regular system. If you live in an area like mine, where the Winter temps are always in that "freeze zone", despite electric being fairly cheap, it tends to cause a lot of Kwh's to be used. Further South, where you can be assured to stay above 40 on a regular basis, and they will be similarly financially efficient. In the Summer, you'll see a more efficient geothermal system as temperature rise. For cooling, the further North you go, the less those benefits of a geothermal will pay off, but for heating, it's much better with the geothermal. Where air temps are nearly the same as ground temps, you'll see no advantage. So it's difficult to nail down a cost saving without a full personal study for one's home.

Second question, swings in temperature. Both systems have electric heat installed in them, and also have a unique two-stage thermostats. First stage is the refrigerant heating, and the second stage is set to engage when temperature setting exceeds 2 degrees from room temperature. This is done in case the refrigerant heating can't keep up with the home's losses. So you can see, you wouldn't want to trigger large swings without significant Kwh's from being used. A very even temperature is the most affordable method of operation. "Setback" or programmable thermostats would be a definite no-no. (doubt you'd be able to find a two-stage programmable)

The number one thing I don't like about any heatpump system is, they just feel drafty. The air from the vents is cool to the touch, well below 100 F, unlike other heating systems which are much higher temperatures. This means a heatpump system will need to run much longer in order to get the same amount of temperature rise in the home. It may be cheaper, (in warmer climates anyhow) but it's going to run an awful lot.

Here's the plan for my guest house....

Insulated 12' x 6' x 8' concrete block box filled with sand.
A waste oil burner sits inside the box and 5/8" PEX tubing
carries the heat from the box into the house and heats the
floor. Of course my goal is to get the building warmer, not
a comfortable and consistent 72 degrees. Not too bad of
a price to build, (about $2,500) but then this system doesn't
need to meet any specific code requirements.

Radiant heat floors are sooo nice, but not always cheap.

...Goes against my principles... ;-)

-Rick

Hi Lisa,
We have been seriously considering Geothermal heat for our log home. I know it is supposed to be very effective here in Northern Alberta. I have a friend who gave me a number of a guy he knows in Sherwood Park who has it for heating his house and apparently just loves it. I am supposed to contact him and see how it works, but have not done that yetl I would also be very interested in wood heat, but my only concern with that is the carbon it gives off into the atmosphere. It is not very environmentally friendly, not that I am a nut about those things (I drive a Suburban, after all), but it would help. I will call this guy soon and go see his set up.
Debby

Wow John. The Blaze King sounds like exactly what I've been looking for. Thermostatically controlled. Can be set to run on low for what appears to be up to 2 days. Has a catalytic converter, so you get very efficient burns and hopefully lower creosote despite the slow burn. Low flue temps. Fresh air kit so you don't have to suck air from your house. Quite a nice stove.

The only thing that worries me is, nobody is willing to quote a price online. :-\

I called a guy in Tennessee about the Ultra model of the King series and it was around $2700 PLUS what the doors cost! Oh yeah...the "cheap" doors cost 300 bucks Evidently you can get three different styles of doors so they aren't in the initial quote. He never even mentioned blowers. I hate companies that do crap like that. I haven't checked but can't you get a wood burner with a water jacket for that amount?

I had no idea there would be so many comments regarding wood heating with this type of heater.
I was fortunate to have purchased my unit in May of 2001 I could not afford the king model I wanted at the time as it was over 2grand, So I bought the Princess model ( PE1006G) with the catalytic converter, fresh air thermistat, and fancy gold plated glass door.
I paid 1900 ( 1400 US at that time) for it at the time. The same stove is now roughly 3000.00 Canadian with the same fancy glass/ gold door.
I bought it from Fireplace Stove World in Edmonton, From Ruth. I can highly recommend this company, She knows her stuff, No BS
I have learnt a good bit now that I depend on it exclusively.
First I would not spend money on the fan kits, Yes they work but are over priced, noisy, and the money is better spend on a good quallity celing fan.
2nd I would not buy the fancy gold/glass door. The solid steel door option works fine, And because this fireplace works so well you will usually be operating it at a lower setting where you wont be seeing big flames leaping off the logs like the pictures show.
3rd I suggest not purchasing the side shield options for installing closer to walls, as they do work well, but if the heat isnt being radiated from the sides of the stove, then its just being wasted going up the chimeny.
The claims of 20hr burn times for my model, and 40 hour burn times from the King model are true. I have done a little over 20 hours with my model, using well dried poplar wood, and poplar is considered a poor firewood.
Overall this was the best thing I have ever bought, The money was well spend, and as a bonus it uses so little wood that 4cords was the most wood I used one year, with 3-3.5 being more typical.
Even if I didnt cut my own wood, and just had it cut, delivered, and stacked by the door it would only cost a few hundered dollars to have done for a years worth of heat.
After a few years of use I made a few changes to it, I now can clean the chimmeny without having to go up on the roof, and I also heat all my hot water with it ( in the winter). So if anyone does purchase this type of fireplace, and has some welding skills I can send some pics if they are interested in seting it up to do the same.
The cost is/was high but it is very much a case of what kind of value do you get for the cost, and when its -30,-40 at night, and I can sleep late (or stay overnight in the city) without having to get up to keep the fire going, then its money well spent YMMV.

John

PS: I do know of one person where this type of fireplace did not work 100%. They are living off grid in a trailer. They have the same model as I have in the living room, It works well but because the trailer must be 70+ feet long (and narrow) the heat does not make it to the back bedrooms well, even with the help of fans. They had to buy a propane type of wall mounted heater . It is a direct wall vent type that uses a standing pilot light. It looks like a wall mounted radiator. It works great, requires no power, takes up little room, and if I remember right was reasonably priced. With it mounted by the back bedrooms they have are comfortable.

John, I'm interested in seeing pictures of your modifications to the Blaze King as well. Some time back, while on a trip to Montana(we live in GA), my dad purchased 2 used Blaze Kings- the large model and the next size smaller one(King and Queen?). We haven't installed them yet so I can't recommend them, but they do appear to be well made so far. I'm impressed by those burn times- the heater he is currently using(from Northern?) has such a small firebox and restricted flue that it is hard to get more than 3-4 hours of burn time on oak, hickory, or dogwood(one of the best firewoods). That is with the vent open on high heat, on slow smoldering(very little actual heat produced though), it is somewhat longer- but still hard to keep coals in for more than 8 hours. I'm sure if someone looked around enough, you could find a good quality stove for several hundred- we bought these two for around $300 each.

I'm in luck- a friend just offered me one of his stoves from his hunting camp. We just have to figure out how to get it down the stairs of the old two story house its in.

Rod,

1800? The king model with the cat, the bypass door, the fresh air kit, and the bi metal fresh air temperature control? If thats what you have been quoted on I am stunned. That would be half or better the usual price!! Just check, and be sure, if so I would not pass it up, it does everything as advertised, or so it has been my experience.

Will & Greenthumb

I checked my home computer, and have a few pics of my water heating (tank not coil) system, and other mods, Some pics were taken with a cell phone, some with a camera. I am not that skilled computer wise to try, and post them here, and get them in order or the right size. So if you guys are interested just email me at jjjjohn (at) telusplanet (no spam) .net and I will send them to you directly, or if there is someone who is skilled computer wise who would volunteer I could send them to you, and you could post them in this thread for those that may be interested. Either way.

John

So, yes, these wood stoves do burn efficiently, but that does not effect the amount of CO2 given off. If that is at all the concern that should be noted. I am still interested in the wood heat because it is much cheaper than geothermal, but they do not compare when talking about CO2 emissions. Now geothermal does use a pump which uses electricity, but, again, the amount of emissions really don't compare. I guess all priorities, etc. need to be looked at.
Debby

Thanks, Rod. Good post. We'll have to make a decision soon
Debby

Just a few comments...
I believe the CO2 stuff is about the same amount of mass hysteria as the stupid Y2K stuff.
First, we want the greenhouse gas effect!
Second, Water vapor makes up 95% of green house gases...
Third, Man made CO2 is about .117% of the total greenhouse gases.
As usual I have a reference...

Fourth, CO2 is potential plant growth, just like water behind a dam is potential energy. Its not effluent!
Many experiments have shown that the higher the concentration of CO2 the more plant growth...
The above is meant as information, not an attempt to start an argument...

http://azjv.smugmug.com/gallery/4174617#243884372

Rod wrote:
"That's why I wouldn't even buy a pellet stove, because you're still putting yourself at the mercy of the pellet supplier."

Rod,
That is exactly my way of thinking. I want to be self-sufficient, or have the option to be self sufficient if I need to.
Although for my water I may hook up to the town's water supply at our future homesite. I figure if it comes down to it, I could walk a mile to the river for water if I had to, or set up a collection system.
Even in the suburban house we live in now, we have a fireplace and are near the woods. Even though at this point we use our fireplace only maybe twice a year, it makes me feel better that it is there if I need it.

2 cents

Just saw this on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwNYI6ME7kA&feature=related

Muuuhahahah ! (evil laugh) :-)

I'm in a typin' mood tonight, so I'll give this a go.

Both are very different animals, but both make pretty efficient use of wood. Alright, here we go:

Blaze King pros:
Very high efficiency burn
Long burn times on a single load of wood
Some level of temperature control without poor combustion problems
Complete combustion via the catalyst
Can bring space temperatures up fairly quick

Blaze king cons:
Expensive
No factory available hot water heating option
Parts will require replacement over time (like the catalyst)

Masonry heater pros:
High efficiency
Provides long heating times between burns
Minimal draft losses up the flue once burn completes
Options can easily be built in, like dutch oven or water heating
Customizable to your specific needs

Masonry heater cons:
Very expensive
Very slow space temperature changes (don't miss a burn or two)
Will likely require two burns a day to operate at best efficiency
Requires user intervention to operate efficiently (close dampers immediately after wood is burnt)
Takes up a large amount of space, and should be located centrally in the home
Each burn is from a "cold" start

Did I miss anything?

Just re-read Uper's original question, and I failed to answer his question of installation cost difference between regular and geothermal heatpumps.

The cost of geothermal is significantly higher, because you need to make provisions to acquire the ground water for operation. This means either drilling two wells or trenching in ground loops into the ground. (which takes up a rather large portion of a lawn for a typical home) Either of which is a costly factor.

I called the guy and asked if it had the handle on the right side, He said it did. When I go tomorrow I will look inside. It seems that it should be fairly simple to tell if there is the catalytic combustion chamber in the unit or just a basic fire box. Even if its old the price is hard to turn down. Thanks, Kent.

I search the web because I want to heat my place with a wood stove and was looking at a way that you would not see the coil or pipe to heat your water and also a safe way that would not take to much electricity or not at all, these are the 2 best sites:

http://www.michigan-horse.org/preheater/

http://www.woodheat.org/dhw/dhw.htm

Peace

Alex

No, I'm still holding off on storage (or the lack there of) concerns, and the fact I just chunked $1600 into my car. (just for PM work!)

Kent, how'd you make out with that Craigslist find?

We looked into this as well, heck unlimited heat from the earths own storage and energy efficent to boot. Sound to good to be true. Well it is and it isn't. Sure it will work, yes it will heat (even in Ontario (-30C this am!) but I still wouldn't want to be without either a wood stove for backup or a damn good gernerator and lots of fuel should the power go out.

The biggest downside?
Cost.

Best rough estimate I could get was 30K installed. Might get away with 20-25K if I did most of it myself.

I'll stick with wood. Which wood now is still up for discussion.

This thread got a little twisted eh?!!! Awww well, just wanted to add my experience with the search for geothermal and the complete satisfaction with a catalytic cumbustor wood stove.

Have pretty much decided not to do a geothermal system (well type) too expensive! When I decide on the foundation style maybe I will leave some of the abundant ledge in the basement and see how that helps!

Wood, even with an expensive clean burning stove, is much better in my opinion. My off-grid home had (shudders at the memory) a barrel stove with a crack in the top, single wall pipe six inches from the bathroom wall, YIKES! There was no central heating system in this house when we bought it (it was six years old at the time). Being native Vermonters we went to the nearest Vermont Castings stove shop to figure out what to replace our nitemare stove with!

Happy to say that we bought a Consolidated Dutchwest stove with the glass in front, it can put out about 50,000 btu's and was totally efficient to heat the four bedroom home. There is a gas/gas heating stove for backup, but we only used it when we were away or wanted to be lazy! That stove is now twenty years old, the combuster has a place at the top of the stove with a lever to open and close it. What I think I remember is that ANY stove can be fitted with one int the flue pipe rising up from the stove. We installed double-wall pipe and put up fire board with an air spacer next to the bathroom wall. Those two things solved the scarey closeness of the stove pipe to the wall.

The Consolidated Dtchwest/Vermont Castings stove has been absolutely wonderful! There was a small learning curve, and if I install another one it will have an optional outside air source to enhance the ventilation for a good burn. The stove will definitely burn for over 12 hours on a load (3 logs)18" length of log and we burned EVERYTHING in it! Pine, green, oak, cherry, birch etc. It was nothing to clean the chimney, maintenance... we replaced the seal gaskets a couple of times, and a new combuster every 3 years or so. WELL WORTH THE INITIAL INVESTMENT. Never burned more than a cord and a half of wood in a cold Vermont winter. And got to burn all clean scrap wood too!

There was a problem with insurance at one point, not having a "central" heating system. But we stuck it out and finally got some coverage. And... the pipes have never frozen... ever. Wonder if the ledge in the basement has had a geothermal effect on the house. Even with no heat on in the winter it has never gone below 45 degrees.... yup, I'm thinkin' that the ledge in half the basement has something to do with that, and the guy probably never had a clue that it could be an advantage!

Hey Timberwolf!
The man who built the home we bought in VT in 1988.... in an area that had no building codes, and basically still doesn't, he picked a spot to build the house and ran in to a pile of ledge. Sooooo he just incorporated it into the foundation and left it exposed in the basement! BUT, truly, even with no heat in the dead of winter the house has never gone below 45 degrees. Now some of you may never be able to integrate geothermal heat like that because of building codes, but in VT ledge is everywhere and hard to get around. I may run into the same thing when I try to build unless I do a slab or crawl space. Understand this basement has a ladder to get to it and contains the hotwater tank, a coldwater bladder tank (29 gals) so the electricity only draws once in a while to refill, not everytime the water is turned on. The power system is solar/electric.

I've lived in the east all my life and have never heard of a "pile of ledge". What I assume you are speaking of is a rock ledge (or shelf of rock) and rather than jackhammering it out the builder build around it or on top of it.

If you look at http://www.paulandellen.com/loghome/pix1995a.htm you'll see on page 2, 6 pics down where Ellen is on the shelf of rock that they didn't remove and built around. Is this similar to what you are referring too?